Bono of U2 talks about his saving faith in Jesus. Curtis also joins the conversation by time-lapsed additions. :) ... >>"This is by far the most clear and articulate statement of Christian faith I've heard by a celebrity." -C.S. (Curtis' statements are preceded by >>>)
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Bono: Grace over Karma
book excerpt
posted 08/08/05
There have been a number of books written about U2 and their iconic frontman, Bono, arguably the world's most famous rock star.
>>> Yeaaaaah!!
But not till now has Bono himself come out to tell his own story. In the new book, Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas (Riverhead Books), the rocker shares his thoughts on numerous topics with a French music journalist and friend who has been with the band virtually since the beginning. In a series of honest conversations presented in Q&A format, Bono discusses, among other things, his upbringing (including the death of his mother when he was a teen and the ensuing rocky relationship with his father, who died just a few years ago), U2's beginnings, his bandmates, his marriage, fatherhood, his passion for social action, the effects of celebrity, and, fittingly, his faith and how it intersects all of the above.
The following exchange between Bono and Assayas took place just days after the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, an act of terrorism that left 191 dead and more than 1,800 wounded. The two men were discussing how terrorism is often carried out in the name of religion when Bono turned the conversation to Christianity, expressing his preference for God's grace over "karma," offering an articulate apologetic for the deity of Christ, and giving a clear presentation of the gospel message.
Bono: My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ.
>>>Amen, brother. "The simplicity of Christ."
Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated.
>>>There is so much good Bible truth and good advice in this short article. Bono goes pretty much from one end of the Bible to the other, touching on it all.
I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that love, that's my religion.
>>>Right.
Where things get complicated for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
>>>No kidding.
Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?
Bono: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ.
>>>Good.
The Gospels paint a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is.
>>>That's exactly how the Bible describes love.
I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery.
>>>Well, there weren't any cars back then, but I know what you mean.
The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable.
>>>Yes.
But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend.
>>>Good insight.
When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross.
Assayas: Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and Central America last time.. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the gospel in one hand and a rifle in the other.
Bono: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God.
>>>Roman Catholic religion is the enemy of God, yes.. Go on...
It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. [laughs]
>>>Right. God does not supply the false way of salvation of Roman Catholicism.
A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy Spirit.
>>>Sounds like Lutheranism. Right.
Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are you chuckling?
Assayas: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met him.
Bono: Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows ‚
Assayas: So you won't be critical.
Bono: No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives to do so, I surrender a little easier.
>> But maybe you shouldn't. You know that good works don't save you.
Assayas: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?
Bono: [W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries spending so much of their national income paying back old loans to rich countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's. It was clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved ‚ by his humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I wondered. Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still staring at them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to him as a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.
>>> Cool. (Even though the Pope is the head of the greatest spiritual deception ever to hit the planet...)
Assayas: Didn't he put them on?
Bono: Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact. Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have the Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."
Assayas: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.
Bono: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.
Later in the conversation:
Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.
Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.
>>>Law to Grace. Right.
Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma.
You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics‚€in physical laws‚€every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it.
>>>Absolutely.
And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.
>>>Sinful stuff.
Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.
Bono: That's between me and God.
>>>Right. This isn't a gossip conversation, but a spiritual one.
But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge.
>>>Wouldn't we all.
I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace.
>>>Your sins. Right. Me too.
I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity.
>>>You know you don't.
Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.
>>>I do too.
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature,
>>>The world's biggest rock star teaches on the sinful nature of man. Is this great, or what!
and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you?
>>>No one is "good" by nature.
There are consequences to actions.
>>>Sin leads to death. Death leads to Hell.
The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point.
>>>Well, the sinful nature dies, but we don't reap eternal death in Hell. Right.
It should keep us humbled‚ . It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.
>>>Praise God for this man! Bono here condemns the official Roman Catholic position on good works.
Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it.
>>>It's not just an idea, it's the truth.
Assayas: Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view.
>>>So it's a delusional hope for lunatics?
Assayas: Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers.
>>>Really, was he that much of an intellectual?
>>>Key question:
Assayas: But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?
Bono: No,
>>>By his words, Bono is saved. 1st John 5:13 says that whoever believes in the Name of the Son of God has eternal life.
it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook.
>>>Sounds like Bono has been reading a little bit of C.S. Lewis.
Christ says: No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher.
>>>Well, he was *the* Teacher, too, but you're right.
I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah."
>>>The Christ. 1st John 5:1.
I'm saying: "I am God incarnate."
>>>Exactly.
And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you.
>>>Right.
And he goes: No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was‚€the Messiah‚€or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson.
>>>Correctomundo.
This man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it.
>>>Actually, He was the sacrifice for sin, sent by His Father: more than a "martyr."
I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched ‚
>>>Yes.
Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:
>>>That's right.
Bono: ‚ [I]f only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. ‚When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and everybody else's.
>>>Right.
So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.
>>>I love that line: "no one can talk you into it or out of it."
>>>Amen.
From Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas, by Michka Assayas, copyright © 2005 by Michka Assayas. Used by permission of Riverhead Books, an imprint of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. For online information about other Penguin Group (USA) books and authors, see the website at www.penguin.com.
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